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Author Topic: The "Moral" Extortionist...  (Read 4636 times)

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Offline NightWolve

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The "Moral" Extortionist...
« on: Jun. 12, 2007, 03:47:13 PM »
Well, given that the cat's been pretty much out of the bag with the leak of the BETA patch, I'm allowing full discussion on it. This brings me to this little email I wanted to share (It's related to the earlier thread by Omega here because he was one of my suspects). I call him my "moral" extortionist... Why? In the aftermath of the leak, the butt-pirate faction apparently discovered laws and morality and applied them in a self-serving manner with the announcement that a future Ys Origin patch would never be freeware. Thus, I thought I'd take a little bit of time while I have it to examine their "moral" compass... Now one of their talking points caught my attention. That's the one about how if you don't make an unlicensed patch for free, don't make it at all. In other words, if their stingy, freeloading hands can't have the patch for free, they prefer even those who would be willing to compensate me for the work be denied the patch. The proper response to this position is of course to say don't fucking buy it, douche. To which they'll again retort: "NO, NO AND NO. YOU DON'T MAKE IT!!! IF I CAN'T FREELY TAKE IT, DON'T MAKE IT!!"

Alright, so where does that leave someone with an authoritarian (I would also argue fanatical) position of this kind if you tell them to go fly a kite regardless? Well, in a word, extortion...  Enter "Nomen Nescio". This dubious douche used an email hiding service after taking time out of his schedule from doing whatever it is that he normally does to type this up and send it on over to me. The sender name was "Nomen Nescio" and I wasn't aware of its significance over the Internet at the time. I tried to reply back to his comments, but the reply bounced so then I figured it out. Anyway, I had saved this email and was thinking of posting it at some point, so voila. My reason for letting you look at this is educational. The thieves in their frenzy did a lot of hand wringing, made twisted various moral condemnations and so forth, thus I thought it'd be prudent to examine a bit of this "morality" of theirs.

Date: March 05, 2007
Subject: "In regards to your faithful service to the Ys fanbase."
Quote
While you have contributed many great works to the community I must disagree
with your stance that the Ys Origins patch will be shareware. Simply put, if you
don't want to adhere to the rules of releasing a fan translation then simply
don't. However, if you do release it as shareware I will be reporting you to both
Konami, who hold the North American rights to the Ys franchise, and to Falcom
themselves. Hopefully, if you do go this way they can have fun with you legally,
hopefully something more than a simple C&D.

I'm sorry you feel that you should be compensated but plenty of us who do fan
translations and hacking do this as a labor of love and people like you give us
all a bad name. I just thought that I would tell you this as fair warning.

Good luck in the future and if you don't want to get in any legal trouble I
highly advise releasing the patch on the trust system or not releasing it at all.

p.s. I look forward to the finished Felghana patch as I refuse to download the
unfinished version.

I wonder if he's still looking forward to the completed Felghana patch as he indicates or did he finally bite the bullet and just use the BETA. Heh. Hopefully though, if done correctly, it should be worthless to fucks just like him.

So yeah, there you are... An inside look into the Ys "fanbase." Sad thing is, they're in the overwhelming majority I'm afraid. Incidents such as with the leak merely bring out what's always been there beneath the surface.

EDITx1: Oh right, one more thing. The real outrage that stands out at me with detestable douches of his kind... It's that he would never show up in say a pirating network and tell anyone there to knock off all that theft, let alone send an extortion threat of this kind to the owner/operator of said network, etc. Tons of Falcom games are being spread freely and openly by butt-pirates and all that's "OK", or not "immoral" enough to rise to the level of being motivated to send an extortion threat or harrass in some other way. Sell a patch though that is ~100% your own work and suddenly, OMG, a radical line has been crossed that MUST be dealt with... Gives you an idea of where his priorities lie.

Unrelated to this, but I saw another guy in some forum that basically associated "legal controversy" only with my $5 minimum donation period, yet then at the bottom of his post, he was telling everyone that if they wanted the game, he'd hook them up with the torrent links to obtain it, right along with my stolen/leaked patch... I wondered how is it he could not see his own hypocrisy in doing that. Theft has been normalized to such an extent, and illegality is only to be found here apparently, that is, if you don't hand over a patch to these dumbfucks for the right price... $0.00... Heh.

Anyway, he sort of reminded me of my extortionist here which is why I bring it up. It's this disturbing mindset that I'm looking at where theft is basically normal and selling is illegal. If you think about it, these pirate networks are conducting a war on selling, making valuable software, games, movies, whatever, available for free over the Internet. Objectively, they've in effect declared selling illegal/immoral for everything (forget the complications certain thieves try to force on unlicensed MODs/patches to defend their phony position on why they should be 100% free) and enforcement for this is handled by their own "police force," all the crack groups, the distribution networks that package it all up for you, etc.

Anyhow, you put that background all together of the spoiled juvenile brat that usually gets whatever they want freely and their position of the following starts to make more sense: "Well Mr. NightWolve, if I pay you, that would be immoral.... So freeloading is actually moral. kekkekkekeke. The 2% that actually give you money are being immoral cause you didn't get a license... :)" Of course it's clear that even if I had a license, it would change nothing. They'll torrent up a crack for the patch should it become available and spread that all the same, right along with the whole game as they are now. Licensed, unlicensed, what's the difference? Free is ALL that matters! There is no mystery here. Nothing further to decrypt. Whatever argument they can come up with to mask their freeloading is what they'll do or take it even further as our extortionist here did.


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Offline Raigan

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Re: The "Moral" Extortionist...
« Reply #1 on: Jun. 27, 2007, 11:45:25 AM »
I like the bit where he claims you're violating the "rules of fan-translations". Rules? There are no rules here.  You could release a "fan-translation" where everything Dogi says is some kind of come-on to Adol if you really wanted to. What a waste of oxygen.

I've been attempting to convince my warez-monkey friends that they really ought to be paying for this stuff and now that they have steady income and therefore have NO excuse at all. So far: no luck.  Just goes to show you that the free-loader mentality is difficult to break. More props to ya, NightWolve for sticking to your guns.
I would display an emote here, but I cannot seem to find one of a face melting off in horror.

Offline NightWolve

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Re: The "Moral" Extortionist...
« Reply #2 on: Jun. 27, 2007, 03:43:50 PM »
I like the bit where he claims you're violating the "rules of fan-translations". Rules? There are no rules here.  You could release a "fan-translation" where everything Dogi says is some kind of come-on to Adol if you really wanted to. What a waste of oxygen.

Yeah, that bit was... curious. I laughed.

Providing a translation service to copyrighted material without any permission/authorization in advance is technically a violation of international law. You basically just can't go around translating other people's original works without asking them first and gaining the permission (license) even though it may seem entirely harmless (such as cases where the original material was NEVER going to be translated officially anyway). Now for this douche, I can go ahead and violate international law, oh sure, definitely, but once I do, once that line is crossed, I am thereafter subject to "fan translation rules" (those are supreme) which must NOT be violated... or else.

Violating international law: Thumbs up
Violating "fan translation rules": Thumbs down

Any questions? LOL

He's basically declared himself an authorized enforcer of authorized "fan translation rules" by others who provide unauthorized translation services. Those rules/views/guidelines/beliefs (namely, give me the fucking patch for FREE!) must be imposed on others through the use of extortion where necessary. He's principled, you see. Anyway, I gather this is what he and other freaks are referring to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fansub
Legal/Ethical Issues
Quote
Fansubbers have traditionally held themselves to a common code of ethics and do not commonly see themselves as pirates.[2] Because Fansubs are made for fans, by fans, and not usually for commercial purposes, many fans believe that fansubs should never be sold for a profit. They are either given away or sold for exactly the cost required to make them (usually, the cost of a blank cassette plus shipping expenses). Many fansubs contain subtitle text that reads "This is a free fansub: not for sale, rent, or eBay" that pops up during the video, in order to discourage bootleggers from violating this rule. Some sites, however, charge monthly fees for downloads, offering more bandwidth. Most fansubbers usually only work with material that has not been licensed for domestic release in their country of distribution. If a domestic company licenses a given title then fansub production and distribution of that title stops.

First, let's translate this: "Because Fansubs are made for fans, by fans, and not usually for commercial purposes, many fans believe that fansubs should never be sold for a profit." This is similar to what one of the thieves said in leak thread. In other words, many fans believe they should get to obtain the fansub at the right price that suits them, $0.00, rather than compensate the people whose work they are getting to enjoy. Furthermore, demonizing the word "profit" is nothing but anti-capitalist, neo-Marxist garbage in my book.

(EDIT: Dammit, I get it now. I've been mixing up the situations with what the article deals with, just as they have purposely been doing to my case. They're applying the old piracy method of fansubbers to me, even though it's a much different situation in the modern era. I don't fucking give you the game. You buy that [or download it]. I only distribute the translation in the form of a patch, just like the SUB file for movie files. This article is talking about a casette that comes with copyrighted material, the whole anime, etc., with the SUBs recorded in. So, of course that is an issue if you're making AND selling it because you got the whole fucking movie itself on it. You're aiding and abetting theft of copyrighted material because the old medium put you in that situation back when there was no Internet/Media Players/Auto-Subbing Ability/etc. Two strikes here; they got no permission to duplicate nor translate the source material. So, copyright infringement combined with right of translation infringement, though the latter, ethically, is not as bad.)

So basically, they take the above view, that this kind of work should never be sold and continue to apply it to just the translation work alone, while wanting it all still portrayed as ethical. How is it ethical to continue to hold onto that view when the piracy aspect of the past was eliminated? They still argue/pretend as if it amounts to selling the whole game itself WITH the translation. I mean, if I provide something to you for free THAT I CREATED/WORKED ON, that is a gift; I chose to do it. Wonderful. No protests. But now, when you try to impose the idea that in certain instances, like here with unauthorized translations, you're supposed to always provide them 100% free, that becomes a something-for-nothing equation, that becomes an imposition of a sense of entitlement to something that technically shouldn't even exist BASED ON A PATENTLY FALSE PREMISE. No 'profit' on my end equals freeloading on your end IF it was my choice to seek compensation for the work. Also, something that technically shouldn't exist becomes MORE valuable on the market, not less, nor FREE... It was something you NEVER would've had in many cases had not the reserved right of translation been violated. Duh!

At the basic level, if you charge, you're just asking for a fair exchange/trade for the work. You've got something that I want (money), and I've got something that you want (a patch), so let's make a fair trade. That's it. Basic. As for lacking a license, how will you have any credibility to hold me hostage to that, when you're more than willing to use the patch and accept its existence if it's free? The formula is to use the lack of a license against me if the work is sold and you don't want to compensate me, ignore the lack of a license if it's free as they've been doing for 6 years... These fucks are just unbelievable to me, seriously.

It's bribery/extortion even without this guy's email based on their behavior. At any angle that I examine the issue in the aftermath of what happened, objectively, these are people who want to be bribed, that want to be appeased. You're having to bribe them by providing the patch for free, and in return they'll keep their fucking mouths shut with regards to the lack of a license. If not, they'll extort in the sense of engaging in fringe protests, character attacks, etc. That's an extortion/bribery racket at play if you think about it, isn't it? Yet, this is masked and portrayed as ethical by taking the focus off the consumer of the patch (them), focusing instead on the producer of the patch and throwing the word "profit" around, etc. It's all a load of horseshit. The way I see it, either you reject unauthorized/unlicensed translations altogether, free or not free, sold or not sold, show CONSISTENT respect for the right of translation, OR, you shut the fuck up. Anything else is an attempt to use the lack of a license in a self-serving, inconsistent, hypocritical manner.

So anyhow, how about adapting the "sell for the cost required to make them" aspect to my case? I guess if I just charge $10-$15-$20 but ONLY for the patch itself, the vehicle that delivers the translation service to you, and not actually charge for the translation, I will have found my workaround, eh? The translation work itself is free, but the vehicle that delivers the translation to you (the patch) is what I charge you for. Heh. And of course, there can never be a net profit since you lose far more in operating costs doing this kind of work. You have to be prepared to subsidize all this work yourself if you decided to get into it. Hoping against hope enough will join you and share in that cost is foolish.

His other bit I liked was about how he's "getting a bad name" as if now I have something to do with him. I've been here, tending to my business, my operation, but now all of a sudden I have something to do with him, and he with me, and that if don't continue to produce freeware to satisfy the demands of "freeloaderism", I will give him, a previously unknown to me random lurking douche, a bad name just cause he also does translation work of this nature (or so he claims)... Awwwww. :( This and many more reasons are why me, your humble benevolent host here, is thought of as the big, bad, evil NightWolve thoughout the "community" at large.


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Offline Neo-Kaiser

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Re: The "Moral" Extortionist...
« Reply #3 on: Jun. 28, 2007, 06:41:38 PM »



It seems that he is crying to enter Zeldane's forum.
« Last Edit: Jun. 29, 2007, 09:58:42 PM by Neo-Kaiser »

Offline zaratus

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Re: The "Moral" Extortionist...
« Reply #4 on: Jun. 29, 2007, 12:46:35 AM »
Hey!  It's BlackPearl!  I recognized him as soon as he started spouting off his age and that he plays football.  Wow, he's still pissing and moaning around?  How long does that make it now?  September 2006 at the very least, since that was when the tirade and temper tantrum happened over here.  And he thought he'd bribe Seldane with your leaked beta patch?  Yeahhhhhhh... 

Offline NightWolve

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Re: The "Moral" Extortionist...
« Reply #5 on: Jun. 29, 2007, 06:36:35 AM »
Ole Scotty boy is unrelated to this. That's not our extortionist here. But yeah, I was aware days ago he reappeared and was piggybacking on top of the original leak over at youtube as well as that message board. It's irritating if in fact he actually believes "it's going public because of me" which he seems to... Perhaps my theory that he gets hit in the head with the football wasn't far from the truth after all.

Wow, he's still pissing and moaning around?  How long does that make it now?  September 2006 at the very least, since that was when the tirade and temper tantrum happened over here.

Yeah, I know his type. That's "normal." Like Vision-Z, FrayedFuckingHopeless, ParallelUni, several others I'll leave out, the fixation/hard-on for me can last for months if not years, as it did with Vision-Z. They'll hijack threads/forums to find an outlet for their grudge, spam my email/forum with porn or whatever, try to turn friends against me, even going as far as costing me webspace, etc. Whatever tactics avail themselves. They're the, "BAN ME?? YOU WON'T GET RID OF ME SO EASILY! NEVER! NEVER, I SAY!!!" types. Heh.

It's not like I stalk them, like I seek them out to cause them trouble beyond my forum; it's the reverse. You just want them off your forum/irc channel/whatever. They can go fuck themselves wherever after that. But some just don't handle rejection very well. It's not that many. I mean, I've banned my fair share of people over the years, and it's only a small minority that turn into stalkers over it.

They're all detestable in my eyes. What are otherwise truly forgettable losers not wanting to be forgotten. I think that's another outrage in my mind that stands out overall. If not for stalking, drama-causing, all of the ass clowns I've had run-ins with over the years all would've been long forgotten. Seems they've learned effective tantrums make them memorable to their target.

Anyway, this thread is dedicated to my "moral" extortionist as it were. I don't want it sidetracked with the other fixated douches I've racked up over the years. Scotty boy is merely a dumb douche in High School, that plays football and can kick everyone's ass to boot (just so you know). He's not the leaker, nor the extortionist. Not with that IQ.


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Offline Zapages

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Re: The "Moral" Extortionist...
« Reply #6 on: Jul. 01, 2007, 09:06:05 AM »
Maybe this is just some crazy idea of mine or something.  Maybe you should contact Falcom.  Then explain to them about your history and what you and Psycho DeuceBag have been doing for the English speaking fans of the Ys series.  I definitely think that they will be understanding and hopefully all your work will not be be disregarded at all.  Just maybe they could give both of you a privilege on translating on all future Ys games.  This way you won't have to talk these pirates, who want things for free...

Another way to safe guard your work is instead of releasing your patches here on your site.  Have them be released on Psycho DeuceBag's site. Both Psycho DeuceBag site and my site are hosted for free.  But you can't make a profit/$$$ on that, but you could have google ads, and other things like that with Gamespy's hosting service to earn some revenue for your much appreciated hard work work.    Also, I think you can still have the paypal link for your hard work, but don't quote me on that.  I had a similar problem, some sites used to just leech stuff from my site and I would have 500 gig of bandwidth usage a month... Then I re-hosted all of my downloadable files on Fileplanet, you'll have to use it if you join Gamespy's hosting.  This will safe guard your work. Plus it'll be confidential as you could share the link to x number of people and then take it down afterwards. If the pirates steal your work.  Then you could always email Gamespy and explain the situation.  They will get their lawyers to track them down and get them for stealing your hard work

I'm college student and poor one as well... If I had the money to donate, I would donate 20 dollars.  If it wasn't for your fan translation of Ys 1 and 2, I would never have experienced such a good game and story.  Thank you for all your great efforts in developing awesome translation. Its really appreciated.  Best of luck in the future and decisions.  You know the true fans will still support you in the end no matter what your decision is.

-Zapages

PS: I've haven't downloaded the leaked patch... I'm still waiting for the final version to be released by you man. :)

Offline NightWolve

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Re: The "Moral" Extortionist...
« Reply #7 on: Jul. 07, 2007, 05:20:27 PM »
You guys remember Rensato's shout? He had said: "so... you are planning to get money using someone Else's work? That's just plain wrong dude... blah blah, piracy." Then, milamber3, normally a lurker, made his first comment ever: "Someone else's work"? Yeah, because Psycho DeuceBag & Nightwolve just happened to stumble upon the translation on the DVD. Give me a *break*.

I had to edit my post with the Fansub article I referenced in light of something I realized. I'll explain. Rensato's comment/thinking is widespread and why is it that what milamber3 properly responded with goes right over Rensato's and other peoples' heads? What is it with this frivolous attempt to equate selling just your translation services to piracy/theft? Is it ignorance, the result of being misinformed, or purposeful self-serving intellectual dishonesty/propaganda? It's something that's been bugging me; I kept noticing it over and over again. I didn't quite understand it at first, though I think there is a partial explanation to be found here. Some of these pricks came out of the old anime era possibly. The leaker himself had made specific comparisons to anime to justify his actions. Seems they're arguing/pretending as if by selling, suddenly, I'm somehow reverting back to the archaic method fansubbers were forced into by recording their subs onto a videocassette right along with the movie and distributing THAT, thus engaging in piracy. Making, distributing, and selling that pirated copy IS "getting money using someone else's work." Yeah, most likely you would only charge for the translation work, but the thing comes with copyrighted material and you don't know if the consumer owns the original... The appearance, objectively, is that you're a pirate, selling a pirated copy. Personally, I don't know how this makes them worse than regular thieves who spread the copyrighted material for free in the eyes of the creator (they do far more damage and spread things faster), but whatever. "Oh, come on Falcom, at least I'm stealing your work for free!! That makes me less immoral than the guy stealing your work but charging others for it... kekekeke"

Anyway, I thought this needed to be pointed out cause I goofed in my reading of that article. I was unaware of the history of animes and fansubs: Groups actually sending out recorded tapes of the original movie WITH their SUBs recorded in, thus they were committing theft in the process. Much different in the modern era where you get the movie in file form, download a SUB file and watch it with a Media Player. Seems what the freeloading worms are trying to say is that even though the translation comes in the form of a MOD, that even though it is separated out and no distribution of a pirated copy of the original target material (game, in my case) is required, the situation is STILL somehow comparable to selling a combined pirated version, IF you charge, that is. Basically, you can pirate for them, and translate for them, as long as they get it all for free. Heh.

Addendum: There are anime groups that still do this sort of thing it appears (yes?), that is, distribute pirated movie files, DVD images, etc. with their translations combined. So, guessing that the leaker and others go as far back as the early 90s is likely inaccurate. Anyhow, this does provide some explanation into the normalization of theft. That's what these anime groups were/have been doing. "It was all for the fans.... And they all promised if they liked movie, they'd buy the original... ;D"


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